Belief - Part 1 April 27, 2008
Posted by Visionary in Life, Philosphy, ethics, morality, politics, religion.Tags: ethics, Life, morality, philosophy, religion
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As a child we live in blissful ignorance of the vast number of beliefs available on every single issue and blithely assume that everyone sees things the same way we do. That’s why as a child, every kid we meet can be our friend within minutes of meeting regardless of his race, colour creed or background.
Once we start to realise that not everyone believes the same things we do, it comes as a bit of an unsettling shock and throws up a dilemma - which belief is the right belief? Like a child at the sweetie counter overwhelmed by choice we stand in awe of the vast number of conflicting beliefs and wonder how we can ever choose.
One of the largest belief issues any of us will ever have to face is, which religion is the true religion. After all there’s a lot riding on getting it right. According to the vendors – our eternal souls no less. Millions of people have died to make their point so it must be important to get it right, mustn’t it?
Eventually after searching the world and our soul for a time and maybe trying a few different flavours we may eventually choose one that suits us and stop asking the irritating question anymore. It’s not that we get an answer; it’s just that we get tired of asking the question.
If you’re stubborn and you refuse to choose one that fits. If you don’t give up asking the question you will eventually arrive at the same conclusion that all searchers must eventually arrive at. The conclusion that there is no way of ever knowing which is the corect belief or true religion and no matter how long you search you will never find the answer.
If thats so, could we resolve all the conflicting beliefs in the world peacefully. If you can’t know which one is right why kill someone over it? Could we just choose the best beliefs even if we don’t know if they are the right ones? Unfortunately, everyone does seem rather attached to their beliefs and this question has already been answered for us through centuries of war and religious persecutions so no need to go there again. ….
To be frank, at this point I was stuck for quite a few years. I tried not believing in belief”. But that’s a paradox, not believing requires belief - doh. Like a koan, meditating on this question eventually stopped my mind dead in it’s circular tracks.
In frustration I asked myself “If belief is so important to us and yet it is impossible to tell which is the right belief – what the hell is belief anyway”? Asking the right question is always a good start to finding an answer. My criteria were that the answer must be simple because the truth is, it must be self evident and it must accommodate every belief without invalidating any other.
Eventually I came up with a definition of belief I was happy with. It fits every belief scenario I can think of and conforms to the criteria I set for my answer. This doesn’t make it the right answer, just a good answer.
A belief is …
Something we hold to be true which cannot be proven to be so.
If it can be proven, it does not require belief
If it can’t be proven, then it isn’t real
How it might change the world if we could get everyone to accept this definition of the word?
Interesting question and great post
I think ultimately it is more teaching respect, showing respect to one and all no matter what they call God or the colour of their skin. Some where along the line we are taught to disrespect, normally by our parents, TV and media. We get taken down that path and end up not thinking for ourselves. For instance I have met many racists who actually have other colour friends, they are friends with them and yet they carry on as racists… make sense? Nah not one iota but instead of seeing the world for what it is, showing respect to everyone they continue on the conformity created by society. Why? because their neighbour does it… Begs the question… if more people start respecting each other perhaps it would spread like a life saving virus
I think the problem comes because we start off with a whole load of assumptions that we never question mainly because we don’t even realise we have them.
I love your comments - every one gives me inspriation for a new post. please keep them coming. I have about 15 draft posts with titles but no body yet just from chatting with you and Amber
I concur wholeheartedly - assumptions passed down by our forefathers and our society…
My last post was inspired by this one so it goes hand in hand
In that case your going to love my post “The Zen of Lego” which was in fact inspired by your post about Universal Respect but fits in rather neatly with your comment about passing down from predecessors and society.
Oh boy - looks like were on a roll here
Great Minds think alike (but fools seldom differ)
oooo can’t wait to read it
Got me laughing hard - great minds think alike and fools indeed never differ stole the words from my mouth! May the good times rock and roll as I always say Inspiration is all over it is up to us to find it 
Vision:
You might be surprised to find that the Bible’s definition of faith is very similar to your definition of belief:
“Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” –Hebrews 11:1
I would tweak your definition a little, though. I would say that belief is something we hold to be true that we haven’t seen proven to be so.
I may believe in something that I am not aware has been already proven. I may also believe in something that has not been proven, yet that fact does not mean it cannot be proven. And lastly, I may believe in something that has not been proven, yet for which there is a large amount of evidence.
All of which is to say, the fact that a belief cannot be proven has little bearing on whether that which is believed exists or not. That statement cannot be made until a belief is disproved.
Looking forward to reading more of your posts!
Robert thanks for sharing your ideas and especially for sharing your knowledge of the bible with me. I didn’t know that
Nothing surprises me anymore.
I turned away from organised religion when I was 11 or 12 so I could clear my mind of outside influences. I didn’t know who to trust so decided to find out for myself. 30 years later I am coming full circle and arriving at exactly the same conclusions. Which is reasuring because the truth must be universal - by definition.
I have been chatting to the Jehovas Witnesses over the last few months becasue I discovered that what I thought was my unique vision based on my own exploration, intuition and extrapolation is almost identical to theirs. I won’t be joining up though because I have very different beliefs about what needs to be done about it. That’s not to say either of us is wrong but it doesn’t sit well with me to take their approach.
The important thing for me is that my wisdom is now based on my experience and not on someone elses knowledge which brings it to life for me and means I can trust it implicitly.
Whew… I was worried for a moment that I was going to have to mount a rescue team to get you from the clutches of the JW’s. They scare me.
Anyway.. moving back to your post. Like you, I have come to a similar place. Looking for answers, trying to find the shoe that fit. The shoe that fit was made for my foot alone was the real answer. How could it be anything else.
The reality of things are we are each individuals - like snoflakes on the wind. Completely unique. No two alike. How could we possibly see God in the same way? How could there ever be a shoe that fits exactly on different feet? We may share similar beliefs, but none can be exactly the same ever.
The important part is that you alone have a relationship with the God of your understanding. That you live by the common sense rules he has given us to make our road easier. Its not that complicated of a thing to do really if you think about it. It simply makes YOUR life easier to live.
Knowing God, and having that personal relationship means that you will never ever be alone. That alone is worth the small amount of faith he requires.. don’t you agree?
I just survived another 2 hour session with the JW’s. They aren’t giving up on me without a fight. Do you know anyhting about JW doctrine Robert. They say some stuff that is completely at odds with all other Christian denominations. EG They tell me that there is no mention of a soul that will live for ever in the bible???
I have’t read all the comments yet - pressed for time this morning. But I must add to your very realistic answer - “If it can’t be proven, then it isn’t real”
Far too many discoveries have been made which until such discoveries were revealed, such as that the earth is round, to discredit that statement; thus the statement isn’t real either - since it can’t be proven. It’s the vision to find the answers that produces breakthroughs in discovery.
Peace, Light and Love,
CordieB
I’m afraid I don’t know too much about the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I will be doing some research soon, however, and will let you know what I find out.
JW’s are the most joyless of people. They find no happiness in life. Its so unbelievably sad. Its all about self denial and sacrifice rather than any kind of joy from God.
The WatchTower magazine writes articles that are lets just say inflamatory and that make you feel like they alone have the answers to all of the questions. But how can you actually have a full life with no joyous connection to God?
Weird.
Robert thanks for your additions to my definition of ‘belief’.
The points you raised are all fantastic and I’m glad to see other like minds pondering this too. All the points you raised are things that I considered long and hard when trying to distil my definition down to its simplest essence. It was a bit dumb of me to expect people to understand my reasons for choosing those specific words without some background.
To clarify my definition, “cannot be proven”
This means that at the moment you are faced with a choice to believe something or not, the subject of your belief must be un-provable to you personally. It doesn’t matter if it can be proven or has been proven by someone else or will be proven. If you choose to accept it without proof it is a belief.
Fact and belief are mutually exclusive. Something is either fact or belief for you personally. If it’s fact then you don’t have to believe it, you know it. Once belief can be proven it becomes fact and no longer requires belief.
Here are my thoughts on your suggestions: -
Belief is a personal issue and so must the proof be. If you haven’t seen it proven but you think you can prove it - why haven’t you? If you choose not to, is there some reason you don’t want to prove/disprove it? Acceptance of things into our value system without verification is dangerous; it leaves us open to propaganda and manipulation. However, if you have accepted something into your value system without proof it still required you to choose - do I believe this?
Again, if it hasn’t been proven to you personally it still requires your belief to accept it into your value system. How may things have been proven and forgotten or lost to previous generations. There are plenty of things we don’t know today like how the Nazca lines were made or why. Once fact, this knowledge has been lost. They are un-provable to us today so again we must choose what we believe.
Beliefs have changed through out history as our scientific knowledge has advanced and will continue to change as we discover new facts, which goes to show beliefs are not real. If they were real they wouldn’t change over time. Future scientific advancements may prove your current belief to be valid or not. However to accept it now without being able to prove to yourself requires your belief.
Evidence isn’t proof and is open to interpretation. So is by definition not fact. People are executed based on evidence which years later may be discredited. The conclusion you come to based on evidence alone, requires your belief and may differ from other peoples. Only the perpetrator of a crime, the victim and direct witnesses can ‘know’ what really happened. Every one else must choose what they believe. The fact that you believe someone to be guilty or innocent has no bearing on reality. One day a fact may emerge to shatter your belief and prove a verdict unsound.
That is absolutely true Robert; a belief has no bearing what so ever on the validity of any claim. It doesn’t matter how much you believe in God or how much an atheist doesn’t. Neither one of you will have the slightest affect on the existence of God. He either does exist or he doesn’t and at the moment that is un-provable so to accept God into our lives requires belief. If God chooses to manifest himself in a way that proves to us that he exists we will no longer be required to believe - we will know!
Again I am in full agreement with you. Because once it has been proved/disproved, it becomes fact and no longer requires belief.
However, this means that anyone could walk up to you in the street, make any crazy statement. If you couldn’t disprove it you would have to accept it as a valid belief. Which it is, if they believe it. Does it make it real?
These comments are getting so long that I think ‘belief part 2′ might be overdue
Hi Cordieb and thanks for your input.
This is going to get interesting now, I can feel the deabte hotting up already
Here’s my question, how do you know the erath is round?
I am not a flat Earther - I have a specific reason for asking this question
Quick Q… are you perhaps a professional debater in real life?
Good response
Actually, there is debate as to whether the world is round. My perception of the Earth being being round is based on photography from a distance. All I can say is that the Earth, not the world, is similar in shape to a ball, or any other sphere, in my perception - and that at one time, people could not perceive that because they did not have the technology to see it at a distance. Thus they could not fathom a round world, because upclose, we never see it’s roundness. Thus they feared they could simply fall off the world once they got to the end of it. But even if the world were flat, they still would not have fallen off due to gravity, I suspose. What do you think?
Peace!!!
SF - no I’m not. These are just questions I have spent a long time trying to answer. A lot of thought has gone into them and every time I come up with an idea it’s been subjected to thought experiments to test its robustness. So unless you come up with something I haven’t thought of yet, I already have an answer for you.
There are no right answers though – we never really know how anything works. There are only good answers. A good answer is just one that explains all the effects you can see at the moment. As your ability to see improves, your answers will have to change to accomodate your new vision. So I’m overjoyed when someone shows me something I haven’t see before and I have to rethink an answer – that’s real progress.
My background is systems analysis and design and professional technical teaching.
System analysis means I’m used to abstracting things down to their simplest form in order to understand them. A good analyst listens well too. Language is very inexact and misunderstandings creep in to conversations all to easily. Before work starts on an expensive system it’s essential to know that you have understood what the other persons needs really are and that what you have heard hasn’t been coloured by your own interpretation of what they said or judgements about what you think they need.
System design requires meticulous attention to detail.
Teaching improved my listening skills & empathy. I needed to know where people where mentally and how they were feeling to be able to help them progress.
OMG - he’s another geek…. LORD SAVE US! *sigh*
CordieB
Like you, I ‘believe’ the world is round because I accept the evidence of satellite imagery. I have not perceived the Earth to be round because ‘I’ have not been up in space and travelled round the Earth personally. This is a really important distinction.
I admit that the evidence for a round Earth is overwhelming, but it is not incontrovertible proof. As I mentioned to Robert, evidence cannot substitute for direct experience and is always open to interpretation and/or falsification This is why some people can still debate with us that the earth is flat. You can’t currently prove them wrong.
For example, the evidence I have seen is 2 dimensional images of the Earth, which NASA tells me were taken from space.
Firstly I have to accept that NASA is telling me the truth and the pictures are of Earth and they were taken from space. It wouldn’t be the first time a government agency has lied to people.
Secondly, it is impossible to tell if the Earth is a sphere from a 2 dimensional picture. Even if the pictures are real, it is possible that the Earth as a disk. I must believe NASA’s interpretation that the 2 dimensional images show a sphere.
Since my acceptance that the Earth is round is based on at least 2 beliefs and no direct perception, it is also a belief.
And here’s the biggest influence on my belief that the world is round. The huge number of people who also believe it. As Galileo proved to the Church when he showed that the Earth went round the sun and not vice versa, even a majority belief can be wrong.
What we are basically discussing is the difference between wisdom and knowledge. Wisdom comes from direct perception and understanding whereas knowledge comes from external sources. Modern society is heavily biased towards knowledge from external sources and we are therefore very vulnerable to manipulation unless we can distinguish between the 2. Haven’t you heard – knowledge is power?
My post - The Zen of Lego is worth bearing in mind here too. If we have assumptions about where we are in the universe based on beliefs and we think the belief is a fact we will never go back to revisit it. We may end up unable to finish the puzzle because of an earlier mistake but we will never be able to find where the mistake is.
I have more to say but I think it’s best saved for ‘belief part 2’.
I look forward to more of your beliefs
CordieB, I have a confession to make
I do have some direct experience of a round Earth but I didn’t mention it because it ruined my point.
When I sit on my surfboard outside the white water and look out into the ocean, I can see the curve of the Earth on the horizon.
I feel justified not mentioning it though because you didn’t either lol
Hey you Amber - Grrrrr
Great Discussion! Excellent points. I throughly enjoyed it! I just love a good conversation - thanks for engaging . . .
Peace, Light and Love
CordieB.
Listen - WE “Geeks” shall inherit the earth - its written somewhere!!!! I made my living with puters… SF too… BritinLA, Ilegal, Rebecca, Ammonyte, many of us…. which is why I laugh… lots of geek jokes. Jump on in
Its a good thing!
Cordie - Great points!
Visionary - My grandmother helped to put the first man on the moon. So when I was a little girl, I had my very own set of REAL NASA photographs of the earth and Moon….. I got to take them to show and tell. How is that for fun?
oooooo MORE geeks!!! and indeed we shall inherit the earth just you watch and see
eish and ones that go grrr in the night to!
you know Ambz am sooooo jealous taking NASA photos beats my pet earthworms hands down (even when they split in two and then there were three!) *she bows*
Your such a show off Amber but how cool is that
*sniff sniff* I smell faint whiff of jealousy…
I know, it stinks doesn’t it - LOL
LMAO you’re telling me! … or is it mine I’m smelling!
First, about the whole round earth thingie: I believe the earth is round, well, because of all the things already said. But also this–
Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood since the earth was founded?
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Isaiah 40:21-22 (what, you thought you were going to get away without me quoting the Bible…? Guess that makes me sort of a geek, too.)
Secondly, Visionary, I thing we are pretty much in agreement as to the definition of belief.
Looking forward to Part 2.
Chortle - nice one Robert. But leave me out of this Geek thing. I gave up puters 5 years ago and I’ve working hard on my human interface ever since - oops
Once a geek always a geek time to accept it
lol @ human interface…. perfect!