legality vs morality – system over sense? April 25, 2008
Posted by Visionary in Life, Philosphy, ethics, morality, politics, religion.Tags: ethics, morality, philosophy, politics, religion
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Let’s open up this debate with some moral and philosophical questions about the nature of value, property and ownership just to get people all revved up.
- Does wealth confer the right to squander?
- Because someone can afford to waste things, should they be allowed to?
- If people don’t need things should they be allowed to keep them?
Politicians don’t like to talk about individual cases because they stir passions in people and passionate people worry politicians. They much prefer to live in an abstract world where passion and common sense are stifled in favour of reason and procedure.
Me, I live for passion and I find moral dilemmas are much more fun with a real life example to spice them up, so here’s one I made earlier.
My next-door neighbour is a GP. We can safely assume that he is earning the average GP’s salary in excess of £100,000. He drives a BMW 4-wheel drive and a BMW estate car, lives in a five bedroom house, holidays in the Maldives and has a hobby that takes him to the North Pole for a couple of months every two to three years.
He and his wife like to shop and there is a constant stream of mail order goods being delivered to their home. Now, there’s only so much stuff you can fit in a house, even a big five bedroom house. So to make room for their new stuff, they have to get rid of their old stuff. Due to the sheer volume of new stuff arriving on a daily basis, the lifecycle of stuff is fairly short and it never lasts long in their house. So the stuff they have to get rid of is good stuff that cost a lot of money and is still in good condition.
They have a set ‘exit procedure’ for getting rid of their stuff, which they follow every time and it goes like this: -
- 1. Dump old stuff outside
- 2. Wait till stuff outside has been rained on for a few weeks and is useless to anyone
- 3. Arrange waste collection for stuff to be dropped into a landfill site
Several times when they have put good stuff out in the garden to be subjected to the ’stuff exit procedure’, I have asked if they would mind selling or giving me the stuff, if it is no longer required. They politely decline on the basis that “we might still need that stuff ”.
Duly, 3 to 4 weeks later the stuff is in a skip or refuse lorry on its way to fill a hole somewhere in our local landscape. I have seen electric ovens, fridges, 3 lots of baby stuff, furniture and much much more subjected to the stuff exit procedure.
So here’s the moral dilemma, a Rabbitt Eglu has just commenced the ’stuff exit procedure’ and is piled up in the corner of their garden in preparation for stage two. Sadly for all the children reading, bunny has left home for good, so for him this stuff has served its purpose and we all know where it’s headed for now. This stuff is made from plastic which will take centuries to bio-degrade and metal which could be re-used not to mention the man hours, energy and resources that went into creating the thing in the first place.
Now my chum next door like most Western people measures the value of stuff by the size of his wad and lets face it the £360 he paid for this stuff is small potatoes in the drop of his £100+k per annum ocean. For an discussion of this ‘value’ calculation see my post Does cost = value?
To the majority of world citizens however, £360 is not a drop in their ocean so the value of this stuff is proportionally much higher to them. Someone somewhere could make good use of this stuff and it could still serve a long and useful purpose if it could put in the hands of someone with different values. (Which isn’t hard to do if you can be bothered – see here for details)
So here’s the big moral question - Should they be allowed to bin it because they don’t want it any more and can afford to?
It’s their stuff after all and they paid for it. He worked hard for the money to buy it, why shouldn’t he be allowed to do what he pleases with it? Even if that means filling a hole in the ground with it?
Legally they commit no wrong by sending it to the landfill but morally we all know that this kind of attitude is unsustainable and is what is destroying our environment. The system says yes – our panel says????
Ok next moral dilemma – if I can’t stand to see the waste of resources, time and energy. If I care too much about the fate of our environment and my children’s future on a planet devoid of resources to stand by and watch this easy come easy go attitude in action. If do a Robin Hood and liberate this stuff from its landfill fate and put it to good use, legally I have committed a crime and should go to jail – but have I committed a moral crime?
Let the debate commence….
Can’t believe your neighbours get away with doing that, they should try it out here in SA it’ll be gone 10 minutes after they put it out and their door is closed – the minute it is in open ground it is often seen as public property there by who ever passes is welcome, except sometimes more often than not its your car.
This principle is very similar to Australia where it is custom to put the stuff you don’t want on the pavement and the majority of the nation follow it, how that started was by one person showing the rest of the neighbourhood how its done. Perhaps not so easy in the UK with the wonderful weather (hear its sunny now
) … perhaps you should put a large poster of SwapShop’s web address on their front door while they are out!
In my books if you had done a Robin Hood there would be no crime committed rather it would be a favour of great proportions to society! Great post
Ok well..
I should weigh in on this… as I live in the world you describe. I personally don’t have that philosophy, but most of my circle of people does. Its pathetic.
I personally cannot stand waste. It bugs my soul. I don’t allow myself to own clothes that I don’t wear with the tags still hanging on them. I don’t throw away anything that is usable. If I am not using it – if it hasn’t been used by me in 6 months… with very few exceptions it gets given away to someone in need or to a charity shop. Mostly I find people to give it to directly.
In my own home that I recently purchased, I proudly bought every single item of furniture second hand. Did I need to financially? No. I just felt it was environmentally friendly, financially smart, it was expedient, and it was a challenge to see what I could do. I won on every level. Ask SanityFound and Ilegirl….lol. I furnished my entire house in CASH. I paid maybe 1/10th what the retail was for the same items – all look new.
My cousin and the set of friends in that circle just waste. They throw away stuff. It makes me sick. Designer clothes with the tags sitting on them sit in their closet. Get tossed away. Once something to them isn’t shiny and new.. or they lose interest.. it becomes worthless. Its sickens me.
I think they disrespect themselves, disrespect the earth, and disrespect each other human being on this planet with their behavior. No matter how wealthy my husband and I ever become… and I imagine for most people we would be considered fairly wealthy… I will NEVER ever allow myself to be that disrespectful and waste.
I stand witness, this is true and pleased to say seen it with my very eyes… just don’t ask how she transported the bed you might fall of your chair for sure!
The interesting question for me is why are we becoming more like this and what can we do to change it. It is the reason why I started this site. I think I may have identified the source of the problem and have some ideas about how we can change it.
Before I sow the seed I need to prepare the ground though
If the landfields continue to fill as they are; perhaps a law should be passed forbidding such waste. There are those who need laws to keep them in check – -sad but true. Continued waste of this nature is detrimental to the earth and humanity . Some would argue that there are millions who depend on the consumer to buy items that are made; manufactured; sold, etc – but the items still could be recycled in some way or another. I work in an Environmental office for the U.S. govt; all contractors are required be environmental conscious and we have to buy recycleble, recycled, or environmentally friendly – when we do not, we have to provide a justification. Our copies are automatically sat to double sided – This was not like this 5 years ago – but now it’s become like second-nature. Great article and great comments too. Thanks for sharing.
Lol to be honest I am both really surprised they didn’t make the front page news and upset that I never got a chance to take a photo – it brings “funniest home videos” to mind must say but alas she’ll spin the tale way better than I so sit on your hands and tie yourself to the chair because guaranteed you will fall off!
I look forward to your ideas – fundamentally I think it is the fact that our culture has changed, we have become the buying nation and more self absorbed, perhaps that is a strong word, more selfish with the added bonus of the lack of respect for money and what one has. As the culture has shifted towards this spectrum we seem to have lost the culture of giving, sharing or recycling (not the plastics or tins of course)… I wait on abated breath and of course for the glass issue
Cordieb – welcome and thanks for your comments.
If we have to legislate I fear the cause is already lost. I think we need less laws and more hearts and minds.
Your comments about the perception of the economic necessity of stuff is of particular interest to me . Please watch this space for more insights about that particular topic soon!
SF – You hit the nail on the head, our culture has changed. The question is why. If we can understand that, we can potentially change it ourselves consciously.
Ah I have many ideas on that but shan’t spoil all your fun by splurging before the time
Yes the potential is there and collectively it is possible
Geeezzzz so I am really a member of the Beverly Hillbillies! SF Thanks for that one!
OK, so……. what SF was tattling on… was.. buying everything second hand is awesome if you have a vehicle to transport it in. Unfortunately, I only owned a convertible at the time. (I don’t dare use hubbys EXPENSIVE brand new car). Anyway…….. So, there was a bedroom set that was a deal. A headboard, nightstand, dresser, mirror and lamp for just $75 =£30! So, I put the top of the convertable down and managed to stack it all in. Drove with it all tied to the car. The looks I got, driving down the road….. well *blush*
ROFL come now the story is excellent AND once in a life time – admit it… its not AS bad as me knocking the tester over during my driver’s
*giggles*
I agree with visionary with the idea of “culture” is what is bringing the slow demise of nature to the landfill.
It’s the fact that modern culture circulates most of it’s life around comfort. The best path to comfort is money. You could argue it’s inner peace, love of one’s self or any other factors at having a comfortable life but try telling that to anyone trying to survive on american minimum wage. The realities of our modern existence is that money has become the dictating force of culture. therefor, since
money has become such a key element, a majority of the human beings out there are striving to make their lives comfortable by selling goods and services with the intent of their product bringing profit. if it were to simply serve others and keep the service going NOT make their own lives comfortable, things like inflation and consequently “newer things” would not be in existence. Here’s a scenario :
If I sold furniture for example. The population bought my entire stock. passed that stock around to each other, never coming back and buying more new furniture, I would immediately go out of business, never making anymore money, thus compromising my own life’s comfort.
This is the fundamental problem in modern society. we as a whole have grown so accustomed to living comfortable and not having to hunt for food , water and shelter, that we would go to almost any means to keep our comfort…from raising prices on food, to convincing that teenager that he/she needs that $150 pair of jeans., creating more stuff, in turn creating more waste.
an endless cycle is what we’ve gotten ourselves into truthfully.
It’s often that I get this small breath of relief when natural disaster strikes. People losing their loved ones and their livelihood is definitely not a good thing, but for a brief moment in the aftermath, economic classes don’t exist and everyone is on the exact same level of existence. Survival.
a small sense of going back to the beginnings of humanity.
I personally don’t see this downward spiral getting taken care of.
It’s just too embeded in the human existence now.
I feel only two things could actually get us out it.
one would be that we have a universal philosophical evolution where everyone sees what’s going on, and makes the change across the board (which history has proven just doesn’t seem likely)
or (I hate to say this) the earth has another ELE and starts all over from scratch.
Christian,
If you read my welcome page you will see that some scientists believe we are already living through the 7th major extinction event. They estimate that 30% of species have disappeared since 1970 and that 70% of those remaining are set to disappear by the end of the century. Previous mass extinctions were associated with massively destructive events. It’s sad to think that this is what we as a species constitute to the planet – a massively destructive event.
I know what you are saying about comfort Christian. Kahlil Gibran says:-
However, historically mankind has had it pretty hard and I don’t blame us for being obsessed by comfort. It has in the past sort of equated to survival. The problem is that we have survival and comfort pretty well cracked but for some reason we don’t seem to be able to tame those instincts which keep driving us towards more and more comfort. Too much of anything eventually becomes a bad thing no matter how good it’s supposed to be for us.
Assuming we would like to avoid the ELE option, it’s kind of important to ask ourselves why we can’t stop the train to oblivion even though we know where it’s heading. I admit that we don’t have a great many historical examples to offer us hope but every failure has been a valuable lesson tried and learned (if we want it to be). The key difference between us and animals is that we do have the ability to act in opposition to our instincts through the application of choice. We do it on a daily basis. How many times do you have to fall off a bike before you learn the way not to? Maybe all the failures were what we needed to find the way to do it right. But to be able to see this we need to be able to look outside of the box. If what we have tried hasn’t worked , then the answer doesn’t lie within our existing sphere of knowledge and experience. To find the answer we must look outside what we know and what we are currently doing.
Maybe there is a way to trigger a universal philosophical evolution where everyone sees what’s going on? Maybe there are pressures being applied currently to stop us all from seeing? If these pressures could be relieved, just maybe everyone might see?
Love V
V I saw this book and thought of you – haven’t read it yet but looks good enough to buy http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/ probably a load of bollocks (is that a swear word?) but from the short bit I read it sounds a lot like the stuff that has been discussed re forces and changing directions – if its bad then it didn’t come from me ok
Hi SF,
Thanks for the info. I have read a few of David Ickes books and they are definately interesting. A lot of what he says about how the world is running rings true for me.
However, I find I always come away from his work feeling depressed and saddend so I have stopped reading it. He believes that 4th dimensional lizard like beings that can change into human shape are ruling the world. George Bush, the Queen of UK etc are all lizards in disguise.
Now this maybe true or it may not but personally I have no experience of it and believing we are a slave race being manipulated by an alien inteligence makes me feel weak and helpless and doesnt fill me with hope about what we can do to make the world a better place. So I choose not to let it into my conciousness.
Having said that his books are a good read so go ahead and try one.
Love V
Maybe I should add, that when looking for my truth about our predicament, I take a very pragmatic approach. If it isn’t within our power to change it there is little point in having the knowledge. So I try to find explanations that would allow us to do something to make things better for ourselves if we so choose.
Love V
I relate and agree it brings to mind action versus words, words is knowledge and action is power… Ta re book, it just hit our “shelves” think they banned him before wouldn’t be surprised – Tin Tin is now banned *shakes head*
You’ve been quiet all cool I hope
Sorry I haven’t been able to contribute lately but I’ve had a couple of things going on.
I have started a new job as a manager of an outdoor swimming pool for the summer. So I’ve had a lot of work getting the pool ready for opening next week and trying to arrange staff plus I’ve been training as a life guard.
I have been in the process of changing my diet too with Ambers help, which has adversly affected the position in my bi-polar boogie. Things usually get worse before they get better so hopefully my mood will stabalise soon. One of my old and hard to break habits is to withdraw from the world when my mood is on the downward swing. I have still been reading peoples posts and have been with you all but just havent’ made my presence known.
Thanks for asking and I will try to post some zero content hello posts on your blogs just to let you know I’m still here.
Love V
For every step backwards it is two steps forward, you have my mail addie if you need to reach out, my ears are always yours. Glad that you are near water everyday this summer, its effects on the soul are calming, it is a blessing.
Hang in there there is light at the end of the tunnel, I know you know this but I am just reminding you in case
visionary,
I do find joy in knowing that there are those out there who can keep a hopeful outlook on the human species. I myself have always considered myself a hopeless optimist. Stepping out my front door, I look at the birds flying, the trees growing and the vastness of the universe, from what I can grasp in my mind anyway, and feel the overwhelming joy and peace of knowing how miraculous life is. Holding on to the notion that everything is in it’s place and the clockwork of existence goes on, I venture out into the sea of humanity and slowly, the dark clouds gather with the realization that we as a species are still clamouring around in the dark, not really knowing who we are or where we are going, and sadly it almost seems that in the general sense we don’t want to enlightened
A very disheartening feeling when one understands the true potential that we actually hold. Maybe it’s that instinctual fear of the unkown. we as a whole don’t want to take that evolutionary leap as we don’t know what awaits our new selves?
I don’t know.
It’s such a dichotomy. The absolute wonder and beauty of humanity and the muck and mire that’s come from it.
The reason for my statement on extinction level event being a solution, is based around an entire theory of the mind, consciousness(self awareness) and energy, which we have proven is an element of the universe that doesn’t disappear, but merely transforms.
The ELE outlook also involves the global philosophical evolution. Where in the higher understanding of life, the universe and our role (maybe we’ll figure out why the answer is 42?) maybe we’ll realize the impact of “the circle” and know that extinction is not really extinction.
Anyway,
Thanks for your comments.
You brought up some good points to consider.
Thanks
Christian
Christian,
I am going to refer to my beliefs so if you want clarification on what I mean when I refer to a belief please see my post belief part 1.
We are currently the most cutting edge product of a process known to us as evolution. There have been many species before us and I’m sure there will be many after us. Evolution never stands still and is always looking for ways to expand life.
We are, to our knowledge unique in that we are the first ‘conscious’ creation of evolution so we are uniquely placed to grow and adapt more than any other evolutionary experiment has been able to. As long as we can and do work with evolution, I believe there will be a place for us as a species. As soon as we can’t it will be time to make way for the next big thing in evolutionary terms.
When that time comes, it will be hard for us to let go as we are quite attached to our current form and there’s a lot of ego involved for us, but life will go on. I am attached to this form like everyone else so I would rather find a way to prolong our time as a species here on Earth.
I agree with you extinction may be hard for us to face but it may necessary to the continued development of the universe. Whilst we shouldn’t fear death, as it’s a natural part of our cycle, neither should we actively seek it. Like wise we should not fear our evolutionary eradication but neither should we encourage it.
visionary,
I really find your encompassing statement on belief interesting.
It reminds me of a debate I once had with a co-worker. He was absolutely positive on what was right and what was wrong. As much as I tried to explain to him that right and wrong are merely perceptual (pov), and that there is only action and consequence, he was adamant on what he “believed” to be true. I believe that whether the action is good or bad, which then leads to the consequence with a result of either outcome, it is all on how it is perceived. Regardless, the action and consequence have still taken place.
e.g.: (completely hypothetical….this is only meant to expand on the theology and not spark ethical upheaval)
A single parent has two tiny children who are completely healthy, but are days away from starving to death and he has absolutely no means of getting them food except for a field of rabbits next door; whom, a family raises them for an orphanage of abandoned children born with terminal diseases. Now the action taken was the theft of the rabbits and the food for the starving toddlers. The consequence is the rabbits are no longer on the farm and the children, who are due to pass away in the near future, go without food.
… Is the man wrong for stealing and depriving defenseless orphans? or is he righteous for saving his otherwise healthy children from death, while the result is taking away from children who are due to die early.
The dilemma is perception “belief”.
Now not to get too mired down on the entire philosophical thesis,
my belief is that there ARE absolutes in the universe and that the absolute is action and consequence regardless of belief.
Now to circle back around to your statement about belief.
I have a snake eating it’s tail question for you.
In your statement you mention that belief can not be proven, otherwise it is truth that does not require belief, while subsequently is not real if it can’t be proven.
My question is this…action and consequence (action/reaction) is a provable theorem, while pov within the theorem is based on belief. Being that my belief is that there is an absolute universe and pov is not real, this is technically my own pov and thus viewed as a belief. Would that then make an otherwise provable theorem a belief that can not be proven..and if it can’t be proven, would that make it unreal? In turn, if that which can be proven is unreal, would that make pov and absolute both on the same level, completely unraveling reality as we know it?…..
Just a fun little circular logic I like to conjure up to provoke the imagination.
take care
Christian
Wow – er, what? I’m really not sure I understood all that Christian. I’ll have a go and hope I’m vaguely on the right track.
Agreed it’s a value judgement based on what information we have at the time. Over time the oppinion may even change as more info becomes available. For example if one of the children who survived on stolen rabbit went on to discover a cure for cancer or became Hitler mark II the view on the theft of rabbitt may alter. Stolen rabbits, good, bad – who knows?
Next bit…
I don’t see a snake eating its tail? If you can prove action and consequence or an absolute universe then neither require your belief. They would be fact. The simple fact that you claim to believe it means that you cant prove it. The fact that you have to debate it and can’t prove it makes it a belief. If anything, this seesm to fit my definition in every sense.
If we have to hold a belief to prove a theorum then it’s not real. Its just an aid to getting by in a universe we dont understand. It might work for us, but it doesnt make it real.
Einstein said that the universe is like a sealed pocket watch with its hands ticking by. We cant open the watch to see what makes the hands move. Science, is coming up with conceptual modals that could explain the movement of the hands. But we will never know if we are right or not. As long as they allow us to predict the future they are seen as good modals but it doesnt make them real. As sciencce progresses it finds flaws and anomalies in the modals which we didnt see before and so we have to go back to the watch and invent some new conceptual modal that explains the anamalous behaviour we observed.
Did I understand or was I way off?
Love V
I’m trying to follow Vissionaries and Christian’s conversation; albeit silently. I do have one question – what does POV and ELE mean?
Peace, Light and Love,
CordieB.
lol – Im not sure I followed it Cordie so dont worry – hehe
ele = extinction level event, I think pov = point of view
yeah that’s right point of view and extinction level event……
the idea behind a theorem is that it is a theoretical truth. exactly like your einstein quote does do a lot of justice to my statement.
the only thing that I think you might have missed in what I was getting at is, just like that pocket watch, we have the best possible theorem on what makes the hands turn. we’ve seen other pocket watches, have put them together, know the physics of watches similar to the pocket watch, BUT, because we can not open it, we are not absolutely sure how the hands move and regardless of all the proof, it is still at the bottom line still only a belief if it is not accepted across the board as poved.
You see the dilema that I was getting to with belief being a truth that can’t be proved?
If it can be proved, but the evidence is not accepted, then it’s nocked back down to a simple belief.
The entire purpose of this topic I’ve conjured up was based off the main topic of the comments of legality vs. morality. When you pointed out your statement of belief, it gave me a window.
When I found this website, I was really excited to see a group of people who are passionate about change and the subjects you all bring up are right up my existential alley. I really do “believe” that we as humans have our role in the universe just as does everything else.
above all else, I just like to stir up intellectual fun
Hi Christian,
It doesn’t matter how good a theorem is, if it can’t be proven it’s only speculation and therefore not real. Or maybe a better way of saying it is that it’s only as real as any other speculative theorem including all the obsolete and obscure ones that have pervaded history. I think that what Einstein was trying to warn us against was assuming to know the answer to anything. If you read through the discussion I had with Robert you will see we discussed the scenario of proven facts falling back into the realm of belief. I feel the defining question must be is it provable to you personally when you have to choose to believe or not. What you hold to be proof may differ to someone else too. For example if you can speak the language of mathematics and I can’t, there may be mathematical proofs available to your intellect that are unavailable to mine. For you it may be a proven fact for me I would need to choose if I believed what you were telling me about the proof that was beyond my comprehension.
It may be helpful if I explain why defining the word belief was important to me. It wasn’t just for intellectual fun or theocratic interest. Everything I do is driven by a desire to find a way to integrate humanity. I observed very early on in life that belief is the major contributor to disharmony dividing our species. I realised that the major problem with belief is that most of us think our belief is true and therefore if someone holds an opposing belief, it threatens our truth. This threat destabilises our reality and it is not uncommon to feel the need to kill to remove this perceived threat to our reality.
The great thing about this definition for me is it allows us to hold our beliefs without requiring us to take action against anyone who does not believe the same as us even if their belief contradicts our own. It does not negate any belief and it allows all to exist in a state of equality. It frees us up to pick and choose beliefs which support us and let go of beliefs that hinder us.
Love V
then by your definition, reality is what each one makes it,
regardless of theorems or evidence.
I do agree with that premise. But then of course, if everything we perceive in existence is only driven by belief, wouldn’t this make existing in general, convoluted? You can believe that “beliefs” are cultural, or hard wired….either way, beliefs need acceptance in one way or another or they die in silence. One truth I think that no human can argue is that we are communal creatures…this being unavoidable, I still feel our success as a species circles back around to the need for evolution. This overwhelming function of acceptance, is fueled by the fires of instinctual survival. This leads to distress and ultimately desires to eradicate that distress. Survival = belief = distress = survival.
Very interesting, I do see what you mean. I need to give what you have said some time to clarify for me.
One thing though, all blogs in this group keep coming back to perception. I have been meaning to write a peice about this for weeks but have just started a new job which has prevented me from writing much. I will endeavour to get it done this weekend.
The whole reason for me strating this blog is related to what you have just stated above. The problem is that belief over time and with enough support solidifies and crystalises in the systems we implement to facilitate our communal living.
Whilst belief is relatively fluid, existing in thought form only, once manifest in a physical system it becomes very difficult to change especially because most of us believe that the belief is real and absolute and not just a way of comprehending the as yet unkown.
I observe that the problems we as a species are suffering at the moment are due to the fact that our current beliefs which are manifest in our systems are long out of date. The systems in opperation today evolved to assist us in a set of environmental/social circumstances that no longer exist. In fact we now live in almost polar opposite environmental circumstances to those which shaped the systems we are still using. It has reached the point where the system is actucally now propelling us towards our own demise and most of the effort we put into our daily lives is just to survive the system, not to furhter us as a species.
There are many people in the world today that desire change and a new direction but the momentum of the system is now preventing us from making any significant difference to the overall direction we are headed. Your equation is now out of balance because the belief/system cannot change to fit the circumstances. The system has become an entity with a life of its own and a desire for its own survival. It has developed an ego. It thinks is separate from us. The system is now so solid and unyielding that the level of distress required to make it change it is at the moment looking like ELE which is somehting I am keen to try to help us avoid.
The good news is that I have identified the systems achiles heel and know how we can get inside and change it without opposition or protest.
I cnat write more as I have just given up breakfast to write this and need to dash for work. Please excuse the many typos and spelling mistakes as I dont even have time to proof read it right now.
Love V